The first and second resurrection

[~Souza~]

I believe we are already nearing the end of those 1,000 years of satan’s reign (look at the government, etc.) and satan knows he is about to be defeated.  This being the reason so many evil things are allowed to happen with no fear of repercussion and truly good people are looked at with suspicion, ridicule and hate.  Michael knows.  I know he does.  He is a part of that new world that’s coming.  I hope I’ll be there.

That is not biblical. The 1,000 years are AFTER the mark of the beast, the great tribulation etc. During those 1,000 years, satan is bound and will NOT be able to deceive. It's also after the first resurrection, which hasn't happened yet.

Now I am confused because I’ve always been taught that the first resurrection was the resurrection of Christ and that the second one would be of his return to claim his people as his own.  :icon_eek: However, near the time of the 2nd coming, there would be false gods and prophets parading as good which is already happening all over the world.  I don’t know if the mark is 666 or if that number was an evil number used as a metaphor in those days of bible interpretation, but we all have been assigned our numbers under what ever name, be it social security, booking, case, ATM pins or any other social assignment, and there is absolutely nothing you can do in this world without at least one of them.  Everything you do is somehow attached to a number.  You can’t get around it. 

Seems I need to be spending more time on the biblical forum and in Sunday afterschool.   :confused:

[~Souza~]

Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (second resurrection)

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Verse 4 mentions the dead that did not receive the mark of the beast, people that did not worship the beast, yet died. It would have been easier to name those the ' ones who received the seal of God', but that is not mentioned anywhere. That tells me that those people are neither part of the 144,000, nor have received the mark of the beast because they kept worshipping God. The second resurrection is IMO those who died before the mark of the beast and the great tribulation, and they can not be judged by whether or not they would have worshipped the beast or not, so they have to be judged by their works one by one. I don't get the idea anywhere in Revelation that the 144,000 will die. I think they will have to endure the tribulation until the end and go to heaven without dying.

[hesouttamylife]

Okay I kinda get it now, I think.  During those thousand years satan is captured and is powerless.  The dead who are with Christ who did not follow satan before he was cast down and were persecuted for it, all sit on the right hand of Christ.  I am still unclear about what happens to the people who remain on the earth during this 1000 year period.  Is there only good on earth because satan is chained and bound? If so, then will every person living and dead during those years ascend to heaven?  Have patience, I know I’m asking a lot of questions.  Forgive me.    And from this scenario, when satan re-infests the earth at the culmination of those 1,000 years will those who are doing God’s work be fooled into following satan’s false prophecy and therefore take the mark and be thrown into the bottomless pit with him?  Will his only mission be to turn as many people as he can away from righteousness before his short time is up?  And finally  will the good deeds done before his return be taken into account?  Is this when their fates are decided as their deeds are read from the books, both living and dead?  I know…  :-\I just want to get a thorough understanding.

[~Souza~]

Okay I kinda get it now, I think.  During those thousand years satan is captured and is powerless.  The dead who are with Christ who did not follow satan before he was cast down and were persecuted for it, all sit on the right hand of Christ.  I am still unclear about what happens to the people who remain on the earth during this 1000 year period.  Is there only good on earth because satan is chained and bound? If so, then will every person living and dead during those years ascend to heaven?  Have patience, I know I’m asking a lot of questions.  Forgive me.    And from this scenario, when satan re-infests the earth at the culmination of those 1,000 years will those who are doing God’s work be fooled into following satan’s false prophecy and therefore take the mark and be thrown into the bottomless pit with him?  Will his only mission be to turn as many people as he can away from righteousness before his short time is up?  And finally  will the good deeds done before his return be taken into account?  Is this when their fates are decided as their deeds are read from the books, both living and dead?  I know…  :-\I just want to get a thorough understanding.

Don't take my words as truth, they are only my interpretation of what I read in the Bible. I will study your questions and respond later.

[Dontwalkaway]

Here's a page that talks about the harvest,festivals, first resurrection and second resurrection.   Also go down the page.  Click where it says resurrections in blue lettering.

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20030829.htm

[MJonmind]

Remember how Michael said he could even turn Hitler around by talking to him, and how he sang in All in His Name ---"There is ONE religion of love!"  How much more can not God show love and special persuasiveness to the whole lot of those brought alive again in the second resurrection (14 billion my guess).  Who knows the time frame between when they are resurrected after the 1000 year reign of Christ, and the white throne judgement.   It could be a period of a year, a hundred years (it doesn’t say), but enough time for God to soften their hearts, give them faith and understanding so they can more easily choose.  Apostle Paul said he was the chief of sinners (the worst) and yet he was blinded by a bright light miraculously with Jesus talking to him.  Now who would not believe and be saved after an experience like that?  Then will happen the verse, “Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.” Philippians 2:10.

 Thus if every human receives a special revelation like Paul, and turns to God, then there would be NOT  ONE name missing in the Book of Life.  Thus only death itself and Hades, which is the grave, would be thrown into hell.  We’re not told everything in Scripture.  It’s called Progressive Revelation.  Adam wasn’t told as much as Moses, and Moses wasn’t told as much as David, and David wasn’t told as much as Paul, and Paul wasn’t told perhaps about the possibility that in the end, ALL will be given the faith and change of heart needed for their name to be put in the book.  Remember the verse, “As in Adam ALL die, and so in Christ shall ALL be made alive!” 1 Corinthians 15:22.  It DOESN'T say that only a few die because of Adam's sin, because supposedly only a few are made alive in Christ--having eternal life.

I’m telling you, Scripture is tricky on purpose by God.   If some Christians have a problem or are disappointed with nobody burning in hell, that tells how much real love is in their hearts.  It is a Biblical interpretation that gives hope, joy, peace, and TRUE love for all mankind.  Once you've read the many great Bible teachers studies on this topic and have had your eyes opened to this (just like to Michael's death hoax), you will feel such bursting joy and love for all mankind, not judgement of others and fear.  JMO

This Scripture passage shows how high the standard is to be saved, certainly not most who think they love God or have done good deeds in Jesus name will be saved.  If the mark of the beast is indeed keeping the Sabbath, well that alone damns the vast majority of Christians right there, never-mind for some of the other ways Christians disappoint God with their behavour and are not aware of what they did wrong.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%207&version=KJV

Nor those with money, that did not leave everything and radically live for Jesus, will be saved.  I venture to say that even many here who think they are saved, may not have obeyed God the way Jesus said was necessary, and will end up in hell (if I actually believed the Bible taught a real burning hell which I don’t).
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2018&version=KJV

My posts on the Restitution of all things, or All being saved in the end:

http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/index.php?topic=22042.msg390325#msg390325
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/index.php?topic=22042.msg390208#msg390208
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/index.php?topic=22042.msg390460#msg390460
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/index.php?topic=22085.msg387524#msg387524
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/index.php?topic=14516.msg378386#msg378386
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/index.php?topic=12085.msg249108#msg249108

[melody]

What does that say about Lucifer—a person who experienced YHWH up close and personal, who at one point served him, and yet, at the end of the day, he still decides to rebel? Are you saying that there are no human beings like Lucifer on this planet who, despite seeing his miraculous appearance and knowing full well he is King, would still choose to not let him dictate what they do with their lives? Once you've repented, there's a difference between stumbling in your walk and full-out falling once again. A person who has set their heart to obey, despite stumbling here and there, is still declared righteous (i.e. Abraham [despite trusting in his lies, and not YHWH, to save him], Moses [despite taking glory for himself, despite running away from his calling], David [despite loyally serving a pagan king for a time], etc...)

Also, for honesty's sake, please quote the whole verse.  Phil 2:10-11 actually says: "10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (KJV)

What is "under the earth"? If these aren't physical places, can you please explain what you think they are because right now I am just not seeing what you see. Like I quoted in the Enoch thread, hell is referred to as a prison that holds wicked spirits; I don't think it is the same thing as the lake of fire, but a "holding" place.

Another thing, if your theory is correct, that would mean Yeshua outright lied when explaining the parable of the weeds/tares:

Matthew 13:36-42 (NIV)

36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So, does this make Jesus a false teacher? His words clearly support the idea that some people will belong to "Team Lucifer". What happens to Team Lucifer? They perish. A person that  truly "loves" rejoices with the truth (1 Corinthians 13:4-7); thinking that everyone will be saved is nice, but is it the truth?

[Dontwalkaway]

Melody,

I've been thinking about the lake of fire and the fires also.  Maybe it is connected to the story of Yom Kippur.  They talk about the two goats.  One goat is sent away to the desert as the scapegoat taking away sins.  I'll see if I can get the passages.

[RK]

Hey....I'm just posting this from the Back and Front thread as this seems like the right place to discuss these thoughts.....


RK
Quote
However, the highest type of agape love is not human at all, but divine - God's unconditional love for us, His children.

God's love was shown to us the most when God the Father sent His one and only Son, Jesus Christ to his suffering and death on the cross for our salvation. There is no greater love than this. Jesus had no obligation to die for us, but He chose to. It is His gift, His ultimate gift.

He chose to die for us because He knew what would happen to us, to all mankind if He left us on our own. Without Jesus' death on the cross, mankind is doomed to eternal damnation, no soul will be able to enter eternal life in Heaven.

The sins of mankind (since the first sin at Eden by Adam and Eve) have become so many and so great that no man can "redeem himself" by his own means alone. Even if each person "suffered and died on the cross", it will not be enough to "repay sins' debts" to God. Only the Begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ Himself, dying on that cross for us would "repay our debts of sin".

First Corinthians 13:4-8 provides a perfect description for agape : "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."

MJonmind said....
If there is any CONDITIONAL love, this is it. What earthly father would throw one of their wayward children in the fire in the fire-place, listening to their screams.  That’s why most atheists reject the notion of God, for that is no love at all.  This commonly taught idea of God's love is double-speak and Christians have convinced themselves this is real love. Even the JW teaching that only a few will be saved, and the rest simply destroyed (not tortured forever like standard teaching). Is that supposed to be a little more loving?  People make a hue and cry even if prisoners are mistreated in our prisons, and parents spank their children.  No -- 14 billion beautiful NO's,  every human that ever lived will be saved. IMO That is the ONLY God of love I will worship and serve.  And that's what I firmly believe the Bible teaches.

Hi MJonmind......I knew that when I posted those notes I had on the three types of love that I would get a reaction from the last part.....I was fully expecting that. I even thought of trimming them down so as to be less offensive, but as we were talking about love, I decided against it, for to me that is the greatest demonstration of love ever. After three years I  know your views as you do mine. You seem to have a pick and choose your believable parts  for the Bible. Tell me what do you think of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus....what did that accomplish? Was it for nothing?  How do you reconcile other scriptures such as the wheat and the tares that are mentioned in a post above.   It would be beyond brilliant if what you believed was truth...I  wish that there was no such thing as murder, animal sacrifices, spilling of blood and sickness... In my perfect world, everyone would be vegetarians .In my mind, I can see a world like that.....but when I open my eyes, the mess of the planet, the state of humanity and the evil that runs rampant wake me up to the fact that this is not a divine game....it's a spiritual war being fought on a global scale. This is why I choose to trust what the whole of scripture has to say....I include the book of Enoch with that also.....
anyhow....here is the place to continue this discussion.....    

[hesouttamylife]

In the afterlife whether it be ascending to heaven or banished to the den of fire known as hell, what form will our beings take?  Since it is known that the body disintergrates back into the dust of which it was made, how then are they suppose to be raised from the dead on judgement day?  I am sorry but everytime I think of that, I think of the Thriller zombies      So what part of us will be facing the judgement or the rapture; our spirits, souls?  That has always been unclear to me.  Will we even recognize ourselves and others as our books are open and read?  Or will it be that all memories will be erased, wiped away, and the focus on a brand new beginning as a brand new species of humankind? 

[MJonmind]

RK

Hi MJonmind......I knew that when I posted those notes I had on the three types of love that I would get a reaction from the last part.....I was fully expecting that. I even thought of trimming them down so as to be less offensive, but as we were talking about love, I decided against it, for to me that is the greatest demonstration of love ever. After three years I  know your views as you do mine. You seem to have a pick and choose your believable parts  for the Bible. Tell me what do you think of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus....what did that accomplish? Was it for nothing?  How do you reconcile other scriptures such as the wheat and the tares that are mentioned in a post above.   It would be beyond brilliant if what you believed was truth...I  wish that there was no such thing as murder, animal sacrifices, spilling of blood and sickness... In my perfect world, everyone would be vegetarians .In my mind, I can see a world like that.....but when I open my eyes, the mess of the planet, the state of humanity and the evil that runs rampant wake me up to the fact that this is not a divine game....it's a spiritual war being fought on a global scale. This is why I choose to trust what the whole of scripture has to say....I include the book of Enoch with that also.....
anyhow....here is the place to continue this discussion.....

 
You have such a sweet way about you, so respectful!  You know, I don't have answers to what you're asking, at least not this late--I should get to bed.  I often just like to explore different ideas, plant seeds, discuss what if's.  On the crucifixion, part of me believes every jot and tittle in the Bible is inspired and that it's just the translations and interpretations that are to blame. Part of me thinks there's an over-arching agenda in  the ancient writings-- that Christ's life fulfills/mimics other ancient saviors and gods, and that they are meant to keep the masses ignorant of true gods/lords from other planets/solar systems.  Part of me believes the crucifixion is part of a grand drama, a story-line for our planet, written in the stars, written in repitition in ancient mythology showing a pattern of divine reinforcement.

I simply cannot buy that certain ones are the wheat and the rest are the chaff. (a mere parable by the way) Christians teach that all unborn and children below the age of accountability (maybe 10 billion in all history) are automatically saved because God wouldn't be so cruel to damn them. No where in Scripture does it say they are saved.  "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."  They have not confessed nor believed.  What is the age of accountability? 5, 10, 15?  I saw a cartoon once where a pastor said to the celebrating birthday boy,  "Congratulations, you are now eligible to burn in hell!" whereas he was saved a day before!  Then there's all the people who have never heard, but of course Romans says they have no excuse because nature declares God.  How does nature declare Jesus died on the cross?  I would dare say that by your definitions that you RK and Melody will likely miss the heaven boat because of your sin--how tragic..

"they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil"

  is a very tricky legal matter-- how much sin exactly?  A lie? A selfish thought? Gossip? Not praying enough?  So many gray definitions.

This long article discusses the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, which is the main source of proof for heaven and hell that most Christians give, and here is a short glimpse:

Parables are not to be taken literally. They are to be understood “figuratively.” The real meaning is not in what they literally say, but in what the symbols and figurative language represent. That’s why they are called “parables.” This is axiomatic! Let us turn to some parables for proof of this point:...

Whatever this parable is about, it is undeniable that it very specifically addresses certain groups of people. Jesus directed it at the Pharisees, religious leaders of the time. Both of the main characters are obviously Jews, living in a society in which the Old Testament scriptures were common knowledge. Abraham notes that the rich man’s brothers “have Moses and the Prophets.” Therefore, even if the intent of this story was to describe real details of the Afterlife, there is no way to apply what is in this scene to the fate of those who have never known God at all.

Finally, there is no information in the parable that allows us to draw any conclusions about why these two men had such different fates. If the purpose of the parable was to warn people of the torments of Hell, where is the advice on what one needed to do to avoid that? We are told nothing about the spiritual condition of the rich man, about any sins that he may have committed, about his attitude toward God. We are only told that he was wealthy, and had sumptuous banquets. And we are told nothing about the spiritual condition of Lazarus, about any good deeds he may have done, nor about his attitude toward God. We are only told that he was poor, hungry, and covered with sores. Surely Jesus did not intend listeners to come away from hearing the parable with the notion that it is evil to be rich and godly to be poor.

From careful consideration of the details of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, and the related scriptures quoted above, it is clear that this passage cannot be used to establish:

Anything at all about the fate of those who do not know about or understand the expectations of God.
That there is an ever-burning Hell.
That human souls are tortured forever in such a Hell.
If someone is attempting to prove that there is such a Hellish future for the billions of humans throughout history who have not had Jesus as Savior, the parable of Lazarus isn’t the place to look.

http://nondante.wordpress.com/

There is a ton out there written about understanding hell and the parables, etc. by extremely scholarly people. Here's a thorough and huge one:
http://heavendwellers.com/

Sorry this is going a little off topic.  I don't want to upset anyone, just arouse discussion.

[nefertari]

I'm thinking that TS taught that pass through the water represents resurrection
From TS Sign2

The laver was designed to hold water (see Exodus 30:18; 40:7,30).  The laver parallels with the Wave Sheaf, because water represents baptism, resurrection, and life (see 1 Corinthians 10:1,2; Romans 6:3-9; Colossians 2:12; 1 Peter 3:20,21; John 11:25; Revelation 21:6; 22:1,17).  Baptism represents resurrection, because going down in the water and coming back up is like going down in the grave and coming back up.

Comparing the plan of redemption of Jesus with Exodus - the people of Israel passed two time through the water.

The first time through the Red Sea after the sacrifice of the lamb which coincides with the resurrection of Jesus.

The second time - after forty years of wandering in the desert - the new generation has crossed the Jordan River and met the captain
of the host of the LORD just before the battle for the conquest of the Promised Land (Joshua 5:13-15)

Could it be the second resurrection and second coming?

Revelation also speaks of the woman (chosen people) who - after being sidelined in the desert - crosses a river of water (Rev 12 :13-17) before that her descendants fight against the dragon (Armageddon).

Thus the interval between the first and second resurrection (the chosen people set apart in the desert) should match
1) The period of the reign of Christ (Rev 20:6)
2) With the amount of time in which Satan has been chained in the abyss (Rev 20 :1-3) (just like the Egyptian Pharaoh was entombed in the depths of the Red Sea) and then re-emerges from the sea as the Beast

[melody]

@ hesouttamylife: Well, I've gathered that they get a resurrection body right away when they are resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:52), it will be just like Yeshua's body (1 John 3:2) which apparently keeps the same physical appearance of their former one because in John 20 Yeshua still has his crucifixion wounds in his resurrected body, and they can walk into buildings even if the doors are locked  (John 20:19-31). Scripture says the former things won't be remembered after the New Heavens and the New Earth are created (Isaiah 65:17); I presume this "new start" occurs after the Great White Throne judgment because the New Heavens and the New Earth is the home of the righteous only (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:27) and I would think that the judge has to destroy the unrighteous first.

@ MJonmind: I wouldn't call it "tragic", I would call it "justice". I'm not entitled to life, his kingdom, nor the new earth; nothing I "possess" is truly mine, I didn't create any of it, not even myself. If he wants to snuff me out, who am I to say "unfair"? That's the pot telling the potter what to do. My fault for failing to listen correctly, for stubbornly clinging to worldy, human reasoning or just failing to seek him at all. If I'm in the correct understanding of the story, everyone—me, you, infant to elderly—deserves to be annihilated because of our fallen state. I don't know what happens to infants, perhaps they'll be declared blameless; If YHWH is "just", I trust his decision is right whatever that turns out to be.

Also, that's why I didn't quote a parable, I quoted Yeshua's explanation of a parable. You can't deny that he makes a distinction between two groups of people—whether or not I'm included in the saved group is irrelevant. I just read the parable in Luke 16 that you're talking about, it too makes a distinction. I don't know what was in Lazarus' heart or The Rich Man's, but something set them apart which means the theory that "everyone" gets saved makes no biblical sense. I would say this parable speaks of the Grave/Sheol/Hades/Hell, not the lake of fire because Abraham's Bosom is located here. As we know, the righteous wait for judgment in Abraham's Bosom (which is in Sheol), so Lazarus was declared righteous and/or blameless for one reason or another. As for nature speaking of the existence of a God, that should be the incentive to start seeking; then, eventually, you'll end up finding out about Moses, the Prophets and Yeshua. That part has to be taught (whether it's you picking up the book and letting the Holy Spirit teach you or seeking other Spirit-filled people to teach you), but that's not even the issue. People will perish because they flat out refused to believe the information they do have, they refuse to repent. Hosea 4 & 5 talk about the judgment that he declared upon Israel for their unrepentant attitude/behavior, this one verse is very telling:

Hosea 4:6 (KJV)

6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Prophecy tells us that knowledge will increase at the end times (Daniel 12:4), that means "lack" of information can't be to blame for our destruction; it is our rejection of the information that will cause us to perish.